+
+>> As an author of plugins that interact with the UI, I think it's good that
+>> a *minimal* ikiwiki has a minimal anti-theme, and that plugins are
+>> developed against the anti-theme - it's a "blank slate" for themes.
+>> [[plugins/contrib/trail]] was much easier to get working in
+>> the default anti-theme than in actiontabs and blueview.
+>>
+>> Technical detail: all the standard themes are done by appending to the
+>> anti-theme's CSS (albeit in ikiwiki's build system rather than during
+>> the wiki build), rather than by replacing it - so themes that haven't
+>> been updated for a new UI element end up using the version of it from
+>> the anti-theme. [[plugins/Comments]] and [[plugins/contrib/trail]]
+>> both need some tweaks per-theme to make them integrate nicely,
+>> but most of the design comes from the anti-theme.
+>>
+>> That doesn't necessarily mean the anti-theme should be the one used
+>> on ikiwiki.info, or used by default in new wikis - from my
+>> point of view, it'd be fine for either of those to be actiontabs
+>> or something The important thing is to *have* a "blank slate" anti-theme
+>> that looks simple but sufficient, as a basis for new styles (either
+>> [[themes]], or wikis that want their own unique stylesheet), and derive
+>> the other themes from it. --[[smcv]]
+
+> Ikiwiki's minimal theme is not modern. It's postmodern. I like it for the
+> reasons described here. <http://kitenet.net/~joey/blog/entry/web_minimalism/>
+> " The minimalism sucked you in, it made the web feel like one coherent,
+> unified thing, unlike the constellation of corporate edifices occupying
+> much of it today."
+>
+> I see an increasing trend back toward these principles, driven partly
+> by limits of eg, smartphone UI. So I certianly won't be changing the
+> look of any of my ikiwiki sites, including this one.
+>
+> `auto.setup` and `auto-blog.setup` could have different defaults,
+> or allow a theme to be picked as [Branchable](http://branchable.com/)
+> does. Perhaps actiontabs for auto-blog and default for wikis? --[[Joey]]
+
+----
+
+Is it still Joey's opinion that ikiwiki.info should remain using the anti-theme?
+
+I'd like to make one last, clear petition to move ikiwiki.info to using the actiontabs
+theme. Rationale below.
+
+I wanted to just ask one last time if that was still the case. I've been considering
+picking back up my ikiwiki hacking efforts, as well as thinking about my personal use
+of ikiwiki, and I was privately pondering on the health of the project. IMHO, it's not
+great unfortunately, and we could use more contributors. I feel that the anti-theme on
+ikiwiki.info is putting off potential users and thus potential contributors. The
+actiontabs theme would be a better "advert" for ikiwiki: a better demonstration of what
+you *could* do with it, and I think that's an important function of the site. I think
+people might come across ikiwiki.info whilst looking for basic information on the project
+and be put off by the anti-theme.
+
+Honestly, I also find it hard to read information on the site due to the anti-theme (yes,
+the default font face and size etc. are my own brower's preferences, but I sometimes use
+browsers on other machines that I have not configured), including the wide (lack of)
+content margins, and prefer to interact with it (generally) using local clones.
+(I've just made *this* edit this way, but actually because the login process via email
+seems to be broken for edit/preview workflow. I might investigate/file about that later.)
+
+I wonder if someone feels the same, since you defaulted to actiontabs on branchable.
+
+Thanks, [[users/Jon]]. (2017-12-28)
+
+----
+
+9 month ping, does [[Joey]] or [[smcv]] have any kind of opinion on this matter,
+subsequent to my last comment? I ask because both of your takes on the issue are from
+way back in 2011. — [[Jon]] (2018-09-24)
+
+----
+
+saw this "typesetter CSS" and was reminded of the anti-theme (and my 18 month old appeal to revisit that decision):
+[typesetter-css](https://screwtapello.gitlab.io/typesetter-css/example/demo.html):
+
+> HTML is a semantic markup language, but web-browsers' default presentation of semantic HTML is more based on compatibility with decades-old browsers than with readability. There are browser-addons that will take a page, strip out the presentational markup and try to present the result in a readable format, but that shouldn't be necessary if you've got sensible semantic markup to begin with.
+>
+> Typesetter.css is a custom stylesheet designed to present generic, semantic HTML in the most readable way possible.
+
+The readability problems with unstyled HTML that this project talks about are exactly why I think the anti-theme
+as default for the main site should be revisited. — [[Jon]] (2019-08-16)