>>> to avoid breaking existing functionality, it implies to hack a bit
>>> [[plugins/edittemplate]] so that multiple templates can be
>>> inserted at page creation time. [[--intrigeri]]
+>>>
+>>>> I implemented such a warning using the formbuilder_setup hook.
+>>>> --[[intrigeri]]
>>
>> And also, is there any way to start a translation of a page into a new
>> lanauge using the web interface?
>>>>> to have the links text generation more customizable through
>>>>> plugins, I could do both at the same time if we consider this
>>>>> matter to be important enough. --[[intrigeri]]
+>>>>>
+>>>>>> The translation status in links is now implemented in my
+>>>>>> `po`branch. It requires my `meta` branch changes to
+>>>>>> work, though. I consider the latter to be mature enough to
+>>>>>> be merged. --[[intrigeri]]
>> FWIW, I'm tracking your po branch in ikiwiki master git in the po
>> branch. One thing I'd like to try in there is setting up a translated
>> basewiki, which seems like it should be pretty easy to do, and would be
>> a great demo! --[[Joey]]
>>
+>>> I have a complete translation of basewiki into danish, and am working with
+>>> others on preparing one in german. For a complete translated user
+>>> experience, however, you will also need templates translated (there are a few
+>>> translatable strings there too). My not-yet-merged po4a Markdown improvements
+>>> (see [bug#530574](http://bugs.debian.org/530574)) correctly handles multiple
+>>> files in a single PO which might be relevant for template translation handling.
+>>> --[[JonasSmedegaard]]
+>>
>>> I've merged your changes into my own branch, and made great
>>> progress on the various todo items. Please note my repository
>>> location has changed a few days ago, my user page was updated
>>>>> I am able to do myself in this area. --[[intrigeri]]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I came up with a patch for the WrapI18N issue --[[Joey]]
+
+I've set this plugin development aside for a while. I will be back and
+finish it at some point in the first quarter of 2009. --[[intrigeri]]
+
+> Abstract: Joey, please have a look at my po and meta branches.
+>
+> Detailed progress report:
+>
+> * it seems the po branch in your repository has not been tracking my
+> own po branch for two months. any config issue?
+> * all the plugin's todo items have been completed, robustness tests
+> done
+> * I've finished the detailed security audit, and the fix for po4a
+> bugs has entered upstream CVS last week
+> * I've merged your new `checkcontent` hook with the `cansave` hook
+> I previously introduced in my own branch; blogspam plugin updated
+> accordingly
+> * the rename hook changes we discussed elsewhere are also part of my
+> branch
+> * I've introduced two new hooks (`canremove` and `canrename`), not
+> a big deal; IMHO, they extend quite logically the plugin interface
+> * as highlighted on [[bugs/pagetitle_function_does_not_respect_meta_titles]],
+> my `meta` branch contains a new feature that is really useful in a
+> translatable wiki
+>
+> As a conclusion, I'm feeling that my branches are ready to be
+> merged; only thing missing, I guess, are a bit of discussion and
+> subsequent adjustments.
+>
+> --[[intrigeri]]
+
+> I've looked it over and updated my branch with some (untested)
+> changes.
+>
+>> I've merged your changes into my branch. Only one was buggy.
+>
+> Sorry, I'd forgotten about your cansave hook.. sorry for the duplicate
+> work there.
+>
+> Reviewing the changes, mostly outside of `po.pm`, I have
+> the following issues.
+>
+> * renamepage to renamelink change would break the ikiwiki
+> 3.x API, which I've promised not to do, so needs to be avoided
+> somehow. (Sorry, I guess I dropped the ball on not getting this
+> API change in before cutting 3.0..)
+>>
+>> Fixed, see [[todo/need_global_renamepage_hook]].
+>>
+> * I don't understand the parentlinks code change and need to figure it
+> out. Can you explain what is going on there?
+>>
+>> I'm calling `bestlink` there so that po's injected `bestlink` is
+>> run. This way, the parent links of a page link to the parent page
+>> version in the proper language, depending on the
+>> `po_link_to=current` and `po_link_to=negotiated` settings.
+>> Moreover, when using my meta branch enhancements plus meta title to
+>> make pages titles translatable, this small patch is needed to get
+>> the translated titles into parentlinks.
+>>
+> * canrename's mix of positional and named parameters is way too
+> ugly to get into an ikiwiki API. Use named parameters
+> entirely. Also probably should just use named parameters
+> for canremove.
+> * `skeleton.pm.example`'s canrename needs fixing to use either
+> the current or my suggested parameters.
+>>
+>> Done.
+>>
+> * I don't like the exporting of `%backlinks` and `$backlinks_calculated`
+> (the latter is exported but not used).
+>>
+>> The commit message for 85f865b5d98e0122934d11e3f3eb6703e4f4c620
+>> contains the rationale for this change. I guess I don't understand
+>> the subtleties of `our` use, and perldoc does not help me a lot.
+>> IIRC, I actually did not use `our` to "export" these variables, but
+>> rather to have them shared between `Render.pm` uses.
+>>
+>>> My wording was unclear, I meant exposing. --[[Joey]]
+>>>
+>>>> I guess I still don't know Perl's `our` enough to understand clearly.
+>>>> No matter whether these variables are declared with `my` or `our`,
+>>>> any plugin can `use IkiWiki::Render` and then access
+>>>> `$IkiWiki::backlinks`, as already does e.g. the pagestat plugin.
+>>>> So I guess your problem is not with letting plugins use these
+>>>> variables, but with them being visible for every piece of
+>>>> (possibly external) code called from `Render.pm`. Am I right?
+>>>> If I understand clearly, using a brace block to lexically enclose
+>>>> these two `our` declarations, alongside with the `calculate_backlinks`
+>>>> and `backlinks` subs definitions, would be a proper solution, wouldn't
+>>>> it? --[[intrigeri]]
+>>>>
+>>>>> No, %backlinks and the backlinks() function are not the same thing.
+>>>>> The variable is lexically scoped; only accessible from inside
+>>>>> `Render.pm` --[[Joey]]
+>>>>
+> * What is this `IkiWiki::nicepagetitle` and why are you
+> injecting it into that namespace when only your module uses it?
+> Actually, I can't even find a caller of it in your module.
+>>
+>> I guess you should have a look to my `meta` branch and to
+>> [[bugs/pagetitle_function_does_not_respect_meta_titles]] in order
+>> to understand this :)
+>>
+>>> It would probably be good if I could merge this branch without
+>>> having to worry about also immediatly merging that one. --[[Joey]]
+>>>
+>>>> I removed all dependencies on my `meta` branch from the `po` one.
+>>>> This implied removing the `po_translation_status_in_links` and
+>>>> `po_strictly_refresh_backlinks` features, and every link text is now
+>>>> displayed in the master language. I believe the removed features really
+>>>> enhance user experience of a translatable wiki, that's why I was
+>>>> initially supposing the `meta` branch would be merged first.
+>>>> IMHO, we'll need to come back to this quite soon after `po` is merged.
+>>>> --[[intrigeri]]
+>>>>
+>>>> Maybe you should keep those features in a meta-po branch?
+>>>> I did a cursory review of your meta last night, have some issues with it,
+>>>> but this page isn't the place for a detailed review. --[[Joey]]
+>>>>
+>>>>> Done. --[[intrigeri]]
+>>>
+> * I'm very fearful of the `add_depends` in `postscan`.
+> Does this make every page depend on every page that links
+> to it? Won't this absurdly bloat the dependency pagespecs
+> and slow everything down? And since nicepagetitle is given
+> as the reason for doing it, and nicepagetitle isn't used,
+> why do it?
+>>
+>> As explained in the 85f865b5d98e0122934d11e3f3eb6703e4f4c620 log:
+>> this feature hits performance a bit. Its cost was quite small in my
+>> real-world use-cases (a few percents bigger refresh time), but
+>> could be bigger in worst cases. When using the po plugin with my
+>> meta branch changes (i.e. the `nicepagetitle` thing), and having
+>> enabled the option to display translation status in links, this
+>> maintains the translation status up-to-date in backlinks. Same when
+>> using meta title to make the pages titles translatable. It does
+>> help having a nice and consistent translated wiki, but as it can
+>> also involve problems, I just turned it into an option.
+>>
+>>> This has been completely removed for now due to the removal of
+>>> the dependency on my `meta` branch. --[[intrigeri]]
+>>
+> * The po4a Suggests should be versioned to the first version
+> that can be used safely, and that version documented in
+> `plugins/po.mdwn`.
+>>
+>> Done.
+>>
+>> --[[intrigeri]]
+>
+> --[[Joey]]
+
+I reverted the `%backlinks` and `$backlinks_calculated` exposing.
+The issue they were solving probably will arise again when I'll work
+on my meta branch again (i.e. when the simplified po one is merged),
+but the po thing is supposed to work without these ugly `our`.
+Seems like it was the last unaddressed item from Joey's review, so I'm
+daring a timid "please pull"... or rather, please review again :)
+--[[intrigeri]]
+
+> Ok, I've reviewed and merged into my own po branch. It's looking very
+> mergeable.
+>
+> * Is it worth trying to fix compatability with `indexpages`?
+>>
+>> Supporting `usedirs` being enabled or disabled was already quite
+>> hard IIRC, so supporting all four combinations of `usedirs` and
+>> `indexpages` settings will probably be painful. I propose we forget
+>> about it until someone reports he/she badly needs it, and then
+>> we'll see what can be done.
+>>
+> * Would it make sense to go ahead and modify `page.tmpl` to use
+> OTHERLANGUAGES and PERCENTTRANSLATED, instead of documenting how to modify it?
+>>
+>> Done in my branch.
+>>
+> * Would it be better to disable po support for pages that use unsupported
+> or poorly-supported markup languages?
+>
+>> I prefer keeping it enabled, as:
+>>
+>> * most wiki markups "almost work"
+>> * when someone needs one of these to be fully supported, it's not
+>> that hard to add dedicated support for it to po4a; if it were
+>> disabled, I fear the ones who could do this would maybe think
+>> it's blandly impossible and give up.
+>>
+
+> * What's the reasoning behind checking that the link plugin
+> is enabled? AFAICS, the same code in the scan hook should
+> also work when other link plugins like camelcase are used.
+>>
+>> That's right, fixed.
+>>
+> * In `pagetemplate` there is a comment that claims the code
+> relies on `genpage`, but I don't see how it does; it seems
+> to always add a discussion link?
+>>
+>> It relies on IkiWiki::Render's `genpage` as this function sets the
+>> `discussionlink` template param iff it considers a discussion link
+>> should appear on the current page. That's why I'm testing
+>> `$template->param('discussionlink')`.
+>>
+>>> Maybe I was really wondering why it says it could lead to a broken
+>>> link if the cgiurl is disabled. I think I see why now: Discussionlink
+>>> will be set to a link to an existing disucssion page, even if cgi is
+>>> disabled -- but there's no guarantee of a translated discussion page
+>>> existing in that case. *However*, htmllink actually checks
+>>> for this case, and will avoid generating a broken link so AFAICS, the
+>>> comment is actually innacurate.. what will really happen in this case
+>>> is discussionlink will be set to a non-link translation of
+>>> "discussion". Also, I consider `$config{cgi}` and `%links` (etc)
+>>> documented parts of the plugin interface, which won't change; po could
+>>> rely on them to avoid this minor problem. --[[Joey]]
+>>>>
+>>>> Done in my branch. --[[intrigeri]]
+>>>>
+>
+> * Is there any real reason not to allow removing a translation?
+> I'm imagining a spammy translation, which an admin might not
+> be able to fix, but could remove.
+>>
+>> On the other hand, allowing one to "remove" a translation would
+>> probably lead to misunderstandings, as such a "removed" translation
+>> page would appear back as soon as it is "removed" (with no strings
+>> translated, though). I think an admin would be in a position to
+>> delete the spammy `.po` file by hand using whatever VCS is in use.
+>> Not that I'd really care, but I am slightly in favour of the way
+>> it currently works.
+>>
+>>> That would definitly be confusing. It sounds to me like if we end up
+>>> needing to allow web-based deletion of spammy translations, it will
+>>> need improvements to the deletion UI to de-confuse that. It's fine to
+>>> put that off until needed --[[Joey]]
+>>
+> * Re the meta title escaping issue worked around by `change`.
+> I suppose this does not only affect meta, but other things
+> at scan time too. Also, handling it only on rebuild feels
+> suspicious -- a refresh could involve changes to multiple
+> pages and trigger the same problem, I think. Also, exposing
+> this rebuild to the user seems really ugly, not confidence inducing.
+>
+> So I wonder if there's a better way. Such as making po, at scan time,
+> re-run the scan hooks, passing them modified content (either converted
+> from po to mdwn or with the escaped stuff cheaply de-escaped). (Of
+> course the scan hook would need to avoid calling itself!)
+>
+> (This doesn't need to block the merge, but I hope it can be addressed
+> eventually..)
+>
+> --[[Joey]]
+>>
+>> I'll think about it soon.
+>>
+>> --[[intrigeri]]
+>>
+>>> Did you get a chance to? --[[Joey]]
+
+ * As discussed at [[todo/l10n]] the templates needs to be translatable too. They
+ should be treated properly by po4a using the markdown option - at least with my
+ later patches in [bug#530574](http://bugs.debian.org/530574)) applied.
+
+ * It seems to me that the po plugin (and possibly other parts of ikiwiki) wrongly
+ uses gettext. As I understand it, gettext (as used currently in ikiwiki) always
+ lookup a single language, That might make sense for a single-language site, but
+ multilingual sites should emit all strings targeted at the web output in each own
+ language.
+
+ So generally the system language (used for e.g. compile warnings) should be separated
+ from both master language and slave languages.
+
+ Preferrably the gettext subroutine could be extended to pass locale as optional
+ secondary parameter overriding the default locale (for messages like "N/A" as
+ percentage in po plugin). Alternatively (with above mentioned template support)
+ all such strings could be externalized as templates that can then be localized.